Cuban Spies or Heroes? Two Opposing Versions

This story ran on the front page of the Washington Post Saturday:

"HAVANA -- European tourists here send home postcards with stamps bearing the images of five faces, known simply as los muchachos (the young men) or los cinco (the five). The faces, usually surrounded by billowing Cuban flags, stare out, larger than life, from factory walls, apartment buildings, billboards."

"The five are heroes in Cuba, but villains to exiles in the United States, where they are serving long prison terms for espionage-related convictions in 2001.

"Their case, once cheekily cast in the Miami news media as a "spy-vs.-spy,"  Cold War-era throwback, illuminates the resilience of the complicated, decades-long standoff entangling Cuba, the U.S. government and Cuban exile groups based in Florida. It is now also raising nettlesome questions about the nuances of terrorism and international espionage."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/02/AR2006060201780.html

Comments

[Online Orestes]

Son heroes!!!

[a thought....]

If you come to this country from ANY other country with the intent to leak our secrets, you are a spy and should be treated with accordingly.

[usambcuba]

A thought - agreed with your point. But weren't these five Cuban nationals spying on Cuban Americans plotting to attack and overthrow their Castro government?

Correct me if I am mistaken, these five Cuban nationals were not spying on American military or national security interests. They were spying on their own countrymen, weren't they?

What I am missing here is where is the nexus between these five Cuban spys and their activity against some official U.S. government agency or operations?

I have not studied this case in depth, so I am not aware of all the facts.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

Usambcuba,

You are correct sir!! Those brave Cubans were spying on the wicked Miami Cubans who have committed hundreds of attacks upon the innocent Cuban islanders. I vote the 5 Cuban hereos.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

I just thought of someting. As the article states that in Europe the Cuban 5 has seen as hereos. I often forget that Europeans regularly travel to Cuba, particularly from Miami. This would explain the intense hatred i hear from Europeans on SouthBeach directed towards to the Miami Cubans. Because i guess the Miami Cubans consider the Europeans commie bastards for traveling to Cuba. What a vicious, ugly circle!!

[a thought....]

I am not 100% clear on the whole thing, but I will repeat: they were on American soil from a foreign country and they were spying, regardless of who they were spying on. They are spies. Would everyone feel better if they were from Haiti or Colombia or Nicaragua or wherever?

On another point: People need to make up their minds: They complain when Miami Cubans don't do anything but argue and protest here about Castro, but when something is being organized about overthrowing Castro's regime, they complain about that as well. Do people want Cubans to do something about Castro or not? They keep saying it's up to the people on the island. Everytime a dissident speaks up, they are beaten and jailed. Ambassador, are you going to argue that point? What would you (Ambassador, I'm not speaking directly to you here; it's hypothetical) have those people on the island do? Why aren't people complaining about them? Are they happy? Are they miserable? They are not going to rise up against him. Think about it: For a majority of them, this is the only life they know. Some of them might find nothing wrong with it. If you live on the island and have no relatives outside of Cuba, why should you rise up when you don't know what you're rising up against? And if some of them DO want to fight back, how can they meet and organize when there are eyes and ears everywhere? And what can they fight with? Yes, change needs to come from within, but don't you think they need a little help?

[yep]

usambcuba and john: communist spies

[usambcuba]

Hey yep - again the tactic of the most despicable. You disgrace yourself and lower yourself to the level of a thug. Felicidades.

Yep, please tell us the level of education you have.

A thought -

Read up on the legal definitions of spying. And remember we have spies all over the world too, spying on all kinds of people.

Here is the problem that you raise. There is not a formal declaration of war with Cuba, so legally it is questionable for our government to sanction the kinds of paramilitary behavior that occurs in the extreme hardline part of the community. To wit, observe how our country is handling people like Posada Carriles, Basulto, and the recently arrested Cuban American who had a cache of weapons on his property all in violation of our ATF laws. His defense - "I am using this to fight Castro." Not good enough. There is no official state of war with Cuba. We are a nation of laws. This is another sad part of the embargo. In order for it to have been effective, there would have to have been full cooperation of all nations and there would have to have been a state of war declared. But the U.S. did not want to go there, thankfully. Wars do not always resolve things and generally make matters worse, ie. Iraq., and many people die. Instead it has been used as a political fundraising tool and a charade to make it look like we are being tough when all we are doing is being cruel and stupid. And there is a distinction between being tough and being cruel.

If we really wanted to help the dissidents, allowing free travel and communication and exchange would create an enviroment that would be conducive to the dissidents. But they are sadly being used as pawns in the present situation. Thats why it is utter hypocrisy when these guys stand in Congress yelling for freedom for political prisoners when they themselves support policies that effectively restrict and imprison our own people with this embargo and travel restrictions.

I do not believe the Cuban people will rise up against Castro, at least not under the present circumstances. There was a moment when it was most likely to have occurred, during the periodo especial, at the fall of the Soviet Union, in the early 1990's but it didn't. If the people on the island were not going to rise up when they were literally starving, I have to logically question if they are going to rise up now. And we keep giving Castro a rationale that Cuba is under siege from the bloqueo and the restrictions with our policies, so he justifies his behavior and actions as a
defense against our meddling in the internal affairs of Cuba and calls dissidents mercenaries.

A thought, we are going to have to try something different and much more intelligent and humane with the people of Cuba.

[usambcuba]

a thought - lets take away the rationale Castro is using for his behavior, then watch the Cuban people awaken and rise from the fog we helped create.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

never forget that we THE WHITE RACE ARE IN POWER AND SHALL RETURN ALL cuban monkeys back to their cages!!

[a thought....]

I know we have spies; everyone has spies. I was just bringing up the point that people here want us to do "something" about Castro; no one has been able to clearly state what that "something" is. They call Miami Cubans cowards, etc. because we don't do "something." Please let me know what that "something" is so that we could do it. I know what Ambassador is going to say: Lift the embargo. Is the embargo the ONLY thing that is holding Cubans back from uprising? Opinions?

[a thought....]

P.S. John, what has gotten into you lately? You don't write, you don't request toe emails....

[nonee moose]

who squeezed loujohn's head???? cut it out.

usam: i'm not making any judgements on posada or the others, i don't know the facts. but if they were in violation of our laws, then their treatment should be in accordance with them.

a question (actually, a few): do you believe that the justification you attribute to castro ("Cuba is under siege from the bloqueo and the restrictions with our policies, so he justifies his behavior and actions as a
defense against our meddling in the internal affairs of Cuba and calls dissidents mercenaries...") is correct, as a factual matter? or is it just perception? that is to say, do you also believe that there is in fact a siege? that there is some entitlement that Cuba otherwise enjoys in trade with the US, such that the embargo is somehow a violation of a right, indeed meddling with "internal affairs" of Cuba?

te estoy soplando la respuesta, que no nos coja el profesor. recapacita...

usam, are you there, man? i'm here, and my bullshit detector is blinking in overdrive...

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

A.T.

Honey, i have been getting busy with school. Second, I had to put you in a doghouse for a while, I will explain tomorrow. First, planting bombs on airlines like the Cuban-Americans did is no way to bring down a communist dictator. However, after 45 years this is the Miami Cuban way. Silly Miami Cubans! Hell, the kkk commit acts for a white homeland in America, is that fighting? No. If the Miami Cuban freedom fighter attacked Cuban military targets, OK. But, the Miami Cuban only attacks civilian targets in and out of Cuba. Again that is just plain Miami Cuban cowardly acts of resistance.

Usambcua, you and me got called communist spies against the Miami Cubans. Dude dont get upset, as this is why people dislike the Miami Cubans. It was Conductor/Val, as they are the only Cubans who hide behind false or stolen nicks. Listen, I live in SouthBeach one of the most diverse places in the world. Believe me when I tell you, the Miami Cuban are disdained and despised. Why? Because they always want to call you names like communist spy if you dont agree with their right wing wicked terrorist attacks against innocent civilians. So in the future do what i did, laugh out loud. As nearly every American and European resident in SouthBeach has been called been called a communist spy at one time or another. It a running joke in the American/European community.

P.S.
Conductor im not sure, but I think your right wing Cuban site is getting linked not only to left wing sites, but right wing conservative hate sites.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

p.s
Conductor, i love you and want to feel your body next to mine. honeyboy

[Manny O.]

John,

I though you were going to discontinue your racist rants on this blog? By the way, one or two of these spies were employed at us military instalations in the florida keys. A little too close for comfort, if you know what i mean.

[rational]

The Cuban 5 would not have had to come to the US for any reason if the "Cubans" in Miami grew a pair and denounced Alpha66, Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles, Jose Basulto, et al as terrorists

The 5 were trying to keep the Calle Ocho Nazis from inflcting yet another 9-11 on Cuba.

Hence, they are HEROES.

PS - to the DOJ - if YOU'D do YOUR job with the terrorists in playing paint ball in the Everglades every weekend the Cuban 5 could've stayed in Cuba.

J'ACCUSE!!!!

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

Manny,

First, i dont remember ever making any racist statements. If you can cut and paste one, i will gladly apologize. Second, i said i would not give any of you Cubans any reason to call me a bigot. And thus far i have not made one statement that someone could say was racial.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

Luis/henry gomez/val prieto wrote:

Conductor, i love you and want to feel your body next to mine. honeyboy

First, this may be Luis jacking me name. Nevertheless, if it is Henry Gomez, then all i ask is that you come out of the closet. Maybe you are a known homosexual Mr. Gomez, i dunno. But i am not, so stop making homosexual advances over the interenet to me. As you will eventually earn the reputation in Miami as the homosexual Cuban freedom-fighter blogger. Like i said maybe you are out of the closet and i just dont know it.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

Luis/Henry gomez/val prieto

stop it now!!! your all a bunch of stupid cubans. Manny, your just as stupid as the rest of them. fuck off and suck my butthole. lick it clean ass o

[usambcuba]

Nonee asks -

a question (actually, a few): do you believe that the justification you attribute to castro ("Cuba is under siege from the bloqueo and the restrictions with our policies, so he justifies his behavior and actions as a
defense against our meddling in the internal affairs of Cuba and calls dissidents mercenaries...") is correct, as a factual matter? or is it just perception? that is to say, do you also believe that there is in fact a siege? that there is some entitlement that Cuba otherwise enjoys in trade with the US, such that the embargo is somehow a violation of a right, indeed meddling with "internal affairs" of Cuba?

Nonee- I believe and the facts would suggest that the current situation of our policies do in fact feed right into Castro and allows him to present his rationale and in fact, Castro has stated that the Cuban nation is under attack from el bloqueo, an economic attack from the United States. And so a nation under war, can suspend normal rights and liberties and justify it under the name of national security. Look what has happened at home since 9-11.
Our current policies have not ousted him from power or likely will. We are using the wrong tactics.

Logically, an economic embargo is in fact a type of weapon and punitive measure used against another nation.

The intent of the embargo was originally to punish Cuba for its alliance with the Soviet sphere and to halt the expansion of the Soviet sphere in the Western Hemisphere. (See Secretary of State Dean Rusk ) Then when the politicians realized the Miami Cuban community had $$$ and a cohesive voting bloc when Reagan was elected, the whole thing got subjugated into the present insanity.

[Manuel A. Tellechea]

The so-called "5 Heroes" should be known as the "5 Automatons." It is inconceivable to me that anyone who's been exposed to freedom in this country should voluntarily continue in the thrall and service of a totalitarian government. Was Castro holding knives to their children's throats? Were they brainwashed? Or were they simply specimens of Castro's "New Man" -- wholly bereft of morality and honor, serving blindly the man who enslaves them, indeed, kissing their very chains?

By the way, it was revealed years ago that the FBI shares information with the Cuban government on the activities of anti-Castro organizations in the U.S. In fact, these exile groups are riddled with spies from the FBI and G-2, who, for their mutual interests, keep each other well-informed on their common enemy -- the freedom-loving Cuban exile.

[Manuel A. Tellechea]

Ambassador:

So now you are using the term "bloqueo" to describe the trade embargo on Cuba. You grow redder by the minute.

[nonee moose]

usam:

man you're good, i'll give you that... but you're not answering the question.

Do YOU believe the embargo is any justification to suspend civil -- no, not just civil, HUMAN-- rights of the Cuban people?

Do YOU believe that nations, in this case Cuba, have some right, colorable under any form of law (I will let you choose) that compels ANY sovereign nation, in this case the U.S., to trade with it?

These are not morally relative questions. They are not hypotheticals. All I ask is your opinion, for yourself. No if ands or buts...

I will not insult you. I will respectfully disagree with you, if indeed I do. But neither will you get to slip the questions. I am not asking for your opinion on the effectiveness of the embargo, or the morality of the policy, even. Your views on that score are courageously documented here for all to see and take their measure of you... the questions I ask you are plain and simple. I know what my answers are. Do you know what yours are?

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

nonee moose,
stop asking so many freakin questions like you know what your talking about

man you guys are annoining

[nonee moose]

hey loujohn. summer school let out early? you're a persistent little bugger, aren't you?

why do you keep coming at me? i'm running out of ways to huniliate you, boy. and i'm not luis or any of the other folks that scream and call you names in CAPS. i'll point out your shortcomings quietly... heck i'd use smaller print if i could. and you've totally lost your touch, btw. i don't think you piss anybody off anymore. you've been marginalized. i'm only talking to you now out of pity, and because i still rmember the joy you brought me once, with those lithium-addled rants of yours... honestly? the people that keep pinching your nick are funnier than you now. so what, you want to pick a fight with me? ok, dude, i'll bite. i'll pay you some attention, just so you don't go away mad... there. feel better now?

wittle woujohn happy wappy?

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

yeah...and what's your point dumbass?? im coming at you cause you and all you dumb cubans think you own all of miami. well f-off asso's
Don't care who u are as long as you go back home

[Manuel A. Tellechea]

Yes, the once mighty voice of delirium is now a mere whimper. The medication he's taking has robbed John of his edge. He tries at times but his spirit is not in it anymore. Also, he has had to face powerful competition from usamb cuba, and a self-hating Cuban will always trump a Cuban-hating Puerto Rican.

[a thought....]

John, we can't attack military targets in Cuba...you know that. Like I said before, can you imagine the outcry if the U.S. attacked Cuba? Thus, the Miami Cubans cannot attack Cuba directly. I'm glad you're talking to me again....

Again, I agree with the Moose. Moose wrote: Do YOU believe that nations, in this case Cuba, have some right, colorable under any form of law (I will let you choose) that compels ANY sovereign nation, in this case the U.S., to trade with it?

I had asked this question previously. We are under absolutely NO obligation to trade with Cuba or any other nation for that matter. Other nations trade with Cuba; that's their business.

By the way, if brainwashing doesn't work, how did Castro get these five guys to completely do his bidding? Good points, Manuel.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

a thought, manuel a, nonnee
y do u all think your better than everyone else?
your shit whole of a country is for pimps and whores who i'd like to fuck with// the boys at least. f cuba go home now, white men rule this country so to hell with u all

[Danny DeVito]

longfellow i just twanted to tell you that it really turns me on when you get all serious and you're little brow furroughs and you act like you have some kind of an intellect and work yourself up to where you actually believe that what you're saying has some kind of validity to anyone but yourself. its really hot.

[Whoopie Goldberg]

ohh i love it when john makes-believe that he's smart too

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

A.T.

Arent you even curious as to why you had to endure the sufferage, which was my silent treatment toward you? Or did you even give a damn?

Also, i told everyone that i was starting night school. And that i would be unable to post in here like i used to.

[nonee moose]

cool, this is getting funny once more...

AT, classy as ever, nice to hear from you again...

loujohn, i don't think i own all of miami. i just own you... and that's enough for me right now. thank you for your cooperation.

nuff said

[a self-hating maimi cuban]

hi

[Manny O.]

John wrote:

never forget that we THE WHITE RACE ARE IN POWER AND SHALL RETURN ALL cuban monkeys back to their cages!!

Sounds racist to me

[Val]

This one is a no brainer. They're heros' plain and simple.

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

That was the self-loathing Cuban, Val Prieto, or Henry Gomez who can do nothing else but be preoccupied with me. Pretty sad that Cubans like that cant argue facts. Rather they can "only" run around talking about having sex with men. And making racist statements under my nick. But if that if that is all that got, then who cares.

[gansibele]

"Read up on the legal definitions of spying. And remember we have spies all over the world too, spying on all kinds of people."

1. You need to "read up" on the particulars of the case. They were not only spying on exile organizations, at least two of them have been widely reported were sending reports of IS military planes take offs and landings at an Air Force base where they were employed. Reporting military operations no matter how trivial or how in the public eye to a foreign, hostile government IS spying.

2. Spying on exile organizations is not harmless as you are implying. Remember it was a Cuban spy infiltrated in Brothers to the Rescue who contributed to the murder of three unarmed American citizens and one resident in an act of state terrorism. Some hero.

3. At the minimum, by law they were required to register as agents of a foreign government.

4. If the US has spies in other countries and they are caught, they suffer the consequences. You don't go into the spying game expecting otherwise. They got what they deserved.

Furthermore, is hypocritical to hail these people as heroes, the activities they perfom as harmless and their incarceration as unfair while NOT CONDEMMING IN THE SAME FASHION THE INCARCERATION OF CUBAN CITIZENS IN CUBA for the crime of "enemy collaboration" which has sent thousands of Cubans to jail for crimes such as reporting human rights violations or having contact with foreign embassies OUT IN THE OPEN.

"The so-called "5 Heroes" should be known as the "5 Automatons."

Tellechea is absolutely right. And now they are nothing more than pawns in a propaganda game. I actually feel sorry for them and their families. The ambassadors, oresteses and company are pawns in the same game.

[curt]

The U.S demonstrates that it is no better than Cuba by keeping those 5 Cuban patriots unjustly imprisoned. We should lead by example by freeing the Cuban 5. For more info on the situation log on to www.freethefive.org

[juan]

curt they are spies, not patriots.

read the previous post that says: "at least two of them have been widely reported were sending reports of military planes take offs and landings at an Air Force base where they were employed. Reporting military operations no matter how trivial or how in the public eye to a foreign, hostile government IS spying."

[John Longfellow aka Lou Dobbs]

juan: widely reported were sending reports of military planes take offs

Widely reported by whom. Piece of advice.
Consider the source, especially in Miami. Where the media is control by corrupt right wing Cubans.

Consider the source!!

[usambcuba]

Nonee wrote:

Do YOU believe the embargo is any justification to suspend civil -- no, not just civil, HUMAN-- rights of the Cuban
people?

NO. I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS A JUSTIFICATION. BUT FROM CASTRO'S VIEW, THE EMBARGO IS AN ATTACK AND THUS WHEN A NATION IS UNDER ATTACK THE GOVERNMENT GETS TO PLAY GAMES WITH CIVIL LIBERTIES ALL IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY. ALL NATIONS DO THIS. INCLUDING US. SO WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT IF YOU CAN APPRECIATE WHAT YOUR OPPOSITION IS DOING AND YOU ARE CAUSING OR GIVING SUPPORT TO YOUR OPPOSITION, AS WE ARE IN THIS CASE, THEN YOU WAKE UP AND REALIZE YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR TACTICS.

THE EMBARGO SADLY IS BEING USED HERE AS A JUSTIFICATION TO RESTRICT OUR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO TRAVEL, FREE MOVEMENT, AND ASSOCIATION WITH OUR FAMILIES.
SHAME ON US TO ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE.

Do YOU believe that nations, in this case Cuba, have some right, colorable under any form of law (I will let you choose) that compels ANY sovereign nation, in this case the U.S., to trade with it?

NATIONS DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO TRADE WITH OTHER NATIONS. HOWEVER, TRADE IS THE BASIS UPON WHICH RELATIONS CAN BE BUILT AND IMPROVED. THE KEY TO CHANGING THINGS IN CUBA I BELIEVE LIES WITH THE UNITED STATES HAVING NORMAL RELATIONS WITH CUBA, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE POLICIES OF THE EMBARGO AND RESTRICTION HAVE YIELDED NOTHING TANGIBLE BUT MISERY EXACERBATED AND HELPING TO PROVIDE A JUSTIFICATION TO AN AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

Gansibele. - Regarding the Cuban 5, I have not read the indictment, court transcripts, or reviewed the evidence presented at the trial. What you say about the case may or may not be accurate.

The legal definition of espionage is
"the crime of spying on the Federal government and/or transferring state secrets on behalf of a foreign country. The other country need not be an "enemy," so espionage may not be treason, which involves aiding an enemy"

So were these Cuban 5 spying on the United States government, and were they transferring state secrets on behalf of a foreign country?

At some point, it is probably worthwhile to read the indictment and court records which should be publicly available. I do not believe any of us can really speak intelligently about this case until all the facts have been reviewed. If anyone reading the blog has seen the records, testimony, and evidence, please share that with us.

[curt]

Juan you are one stupid moron!Those alleged spies had extremely low level jobs on "military" bases and there is absolutely no PROVEN evidence that they passed on any sensitive military secrets to Cuba! GET A LIFE JUAN! FREE THE CUBAN 5!

[pee wee herman]

What a waste of time....dont you have anything better to do that post cow manure..
grow up children... down with castro that's it

[juan]

whoa curt, what the hell is wrong with you?! settle down bitch

[juan]

you had a little thing going wit one of those cuban spies didnt you curt. now i understand

[gansibele]

usambcub, I have not read all the depositions, indictments etc, of course. But have read a lot of what has been reported about the case based on journalists and observers' accounts, people that actually read all of them and attended the trial(s), and despite what the conspiracy minded says, it's been proven that they did spy on the USAF among other things. So I know what I speak thereof. Like I said , I don't care how little it was or if anybody driving by Homestead could have seen the planes taking off. BTW, the two spies that did most of that were the ones who cut a deal with the prosecutors and turned State's evidence.

The argument that they were only spying on exile organizations is spurious prima facie because a): that's not a harmless game as the Brothers to the Rescue muder proves; b): The law says that's spying. Period. and c:) all the proof we have to say they were only spying on exile organizations. How do you know they would not have passed other information to the Cuban government if they had it? Are you that naive to believe that the Cuban government actually set them up with sophisticated communications equipment, ciphers and counteractive measures to transmit information about Alpha 66 they could have just reported over the phone?

Again despite the conspiracy theories, they were tried and their case appealed. I'm pretty sure the judges, etc; know the law better than we do and would have thrown out the case if it didn't met the requirements for the spying charge. And if they didn't, well, now the spies can make their case on the appeals court.

[gansibele]

I meant to say "all the proof we have to say they were only spying on exile organizations" comes from their own statements. Obviously that was their defense angle. My point is that we don't really know the extent of their communications with Cuba, but the equipment and techniques they used suggest a much larger involvement.

[JUAN]

GANSIBELE - THANK YOU!!

THESE PEOPLE ARE COMPLETELY DISCOUNTING THE FACT THAT THESE SPIES WERE TRIED IN A COURT OF LAW AND THAT THEIR ACTIONS WERE PROVEN IN THAT COURT OF LAW. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO CALL POSADA A TERRORIST EVEN THOUGH HES BEEN FOUND NOT GUILTY IN TWO COURTS OF LAW