Aide: They're Castro "Apologists" not Sympathizers

From Ana Carbonell, Chief of Staff to U.S. Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart:

"If you are going to call us anti-Castro hardliners you should call the opposing side Castro apologists, not sympathizers of the Cuban government.  The accurate description should be Cuban pro-democracy activists vs. Cuban government supporters or sympathizers."

What do you think?

Comments

[john]

Ana Carboneel wrote: "If you are going to call us anti-Castro hardliners you should call the opposing side Castro apologists, not sympathizers of the Cuban government. The accurate description should be Cuban pro-democracy activists vs. Cuban government supporters or sympathizers."

Do Cubans talk about anything other than Cuban issues? Someone should tell this Cuban, that America needs to get healthy again, before we go after Castro.

[Pepe Pi]

Hello Juanito/johnie boy,
For someone who is critical of Cubans talking about Cuba, you sure do spend an inordinate amount of time on this blog. And about getting healthy, perhaps you should peruse and comment on a commie blog where you would feel right at home with your fellow travelers, and thereby allow us superior intellectual Cubans reasonable discussions without your trial jibberish.

[Pepe Pi]

trivial, rather than trial, jibberish

[gansibele]

"Hardliners" stung? Well, Ms Carbonell, how about "disgruntled relative with a bone to pick"? Or "ineffectual stubborn narrow-agenda demagogue"? Agree on the "apologists"part though.

[john]

You know what I like to do some times is stick one thumb in my mouth and the other in my ass. Then I get my boyfriend to blow a whistle every 30 seconds and I switch hands.

Yummy.

[john]

I changed my mind about you Cubans. I've really gained a deep understanding about what it must be like to lose your country. I take back everything I said. Uh, oh the whistle's blowing. See ya later.

[john]

Johns imposter wrote: You know what I like to do some times is stick one thumb in my mouth and the other in my ass. Then I get my boyfriend to blow a whistle every 30 seconds and I switch hands.

Clever, but that wasnt me. So whatever arsehole that has hijacked my name knock it off. Damn cubans!

[amp]

hahahahahaha!!!! That is the funniest thing "John" has ever said!

[john]

Amp,

You know that wasnt me. Where is my e-mail pics of your feets?

[Robert]

Gansibele,

I really don't understand you sometimes. Carbonell was right on the money. It probably stung you a little that she would come back with something that makes a little too much sense for you.

"Disgruntled relatives with a bone to pick". Is that how you see the traditional exile community? If so, then it's a sad statement which reflects your deep lack of understanding of the pain and heartache that many Cubans justly feel. Why does disdain for a brutal and murderous regime seem like a simple case of sour grapes to you?

You think we're narrow minded? Stubborn? When it comes to how we feel about fidel, damn right we are. Is there really any other rational, human way to view fidel other than as a brutal, murderous man? Sometimes people think they're so smart that they think they can see things that ordinary mortals can't. When it comes to fidel, let's keep it simple, Gansi. You call it narrow-mindedness, I call it FOCUS.

You're probably thinking, Batista was a thug too. Yes, he was. But that was 50 years ago and fidel was supposed to be the answer, something better. Instead, it's easy to see that Batista was a saint compared to the devil down south.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinions and you can express them on my blog anytime. But belittling the other side or referring to them as "disgruntled relatives" serves you no good if you're trying to make a case for a different approach. You can disagree without making insensitive statements such as the one I'm criticizing you for here.

[john]

Robert wrote: You think we're narrow minded? Stubborn? When it comes to how we feel about fidel, damn right we are. Is there really any other rational, human way to view fidel other than as a brutal, murderous man? Sometimes people think they're so smart that they think they can see things that ordinary mortals can't. When it comes to fidel, let's keep it simple, Gansi. You call it narrow-mindedness, I call it FOCUS.

This is obviously not my argument. But im just curious, what are you doing to fight Fidel here in Miami? Sitting here blogging on yer fat ass is not going to be enough. The truth of the matter, is that for 45 years the exile hardline approach has failed. I believe however, the fight against Fidel is a righteous fight. But, the exiles must find new ways as the other ways have been a miserable failure. It also appears as if the exiles have put republican politics ahead of freedom for Cuba. Worse, it appears that some greedy, selfish cuban exile view the movement as a way to make money for themselves. Note: this is not unique for the Cuban, as any race is likely to have these types of greedy selfish scum. As far as the comment "disgruntled relatives." Well, i think that comment can be viewed as half empty or half full. You view it as half empty. My view is yes, i think they are disgruntled relatives. Why? If they were more than disgruntled relatives, they would have stayed on the island and fought for their homeland. Now they are here in America shaking their fist and going on their hunger strikes. Look at you for example, you are a cuban exile who is reduced to shaking your fist at some man/woman behind his Dell computer screen, over a comment that you have purposely misconstrued just to make yourself feel better by keeping the cubans inline. To make yourself feel like your are striking a blow against Fidel. But, as i have blogged, i have begun to notice a difference between the Cubans and others. Notwithstanding all the name calling, implied threats to kick my butt, the cuban divas attacking my penis size etc etc etc. That the Cuban people are really a laid back, easy going group. I suspect this is how they ultimately lost their nation. They were unwilling to become as violent as Fidel, to fight back to regain their country. Unlike "real" Americans who are more than willing to die for "other" peoples causes and nations. Cite" WW1, WW2,Korea,Vietnam,Grenada,Panama,Gulf War 1,Somalia,Bosnia,Kosovo,Iraq. I left out Afghanstan, as that is our national interest. Hence, the difference between Cubans and "real" Americans could not be more distinct. Cubans fled to a nation of warriors, when they are themselves are fleeing cowards. So they try hard to overcompensate for their cowardiness, of being recognized as the only ethnic group in the world to flee from a fight. Robert, that is exactly why you are here shaking your fist at Gansibele. Keeping those Cubans inline is "how" you fight for freedom for Cuba. Im not disgusted with the cowardly Cubans like Robert anymore. No, instead i feel sorry for him. As i now know when he looks in the mirror he sees a human being who belongs to the "only" race of people who fled from "one" man, who the rest of this nation would have fought against. This is the only thing Robert has the strength or balls to do. Shake his fist, and call people communist. I feel sorry for this Cuban Robert, and the Cuban community as a whole. I now realize why they call Cubans the Jews of the Western Hemisphere.

Sincerely,
john

Have a nice day,
the real john

[john]

Robert: Batista was a thug too

Watch your grammar there buddy, its improper. If you want to live in America, then learn proper grammar.

[dividedcubanfamily]

I am not an apoligist nor a sympathizer; all I want is to be able to bring my child (half-cuban american) to see his grandparents in Habana! Share a birthday with his grandparents would be nice. I would also like to be able to attend my father-in-laws funeral when he dies (and his grandchild too)

Of course, what do you spiteful and revengeful cuban-americans from Miami say about that? I live in Maryland now, where the smart and nuanced cuban-americans live. The ones who aren't apoligists for Fidel (how could you be?) BUT at the same time believe that I should be able to take my little boy to visit his grandfather whenever the hell he wants!!!

Apologist or sympathizer WE MUST START WORKING TOWARD HELPING CUBAN FAMILIES LIVING IN THE USA BE ABLE TO VISIT THEIR OWN PARENTS (MORE THAN THE SHAMEFUL ONCE PER THREE YEARS)

[john]

Dividedcubanfamily wrote: I am not an apoligist nor a sympathizer; all I want is to be able to bring my child (half-cuban american) to see his grandparents in Habana! Share a birthday with his grandparents would be nice. I would also like to be able to attend my father-in-laws funeral when he dies (and his grandchild too)

This is probably the most sincere, post i have ever read. This is why i am so glad that i am not of the Cuban origin. Having some militant right wing politicians tell me i cannot see my dying father or mother, because of "one" man would be inconceivable to me. Right wing Cubans are evil, and soulless. The denial of seeing a loved one is the work of the devil. Would God sanction the denial of a son or daughter seeing their parent on their death bed? Oh, but a right wing Cuban will say that traveling to Cuba to see a dying loved one will keep Fidel in power. As many of the older Cuban know, life is too short for this type of mentality. I cannot think of any other nation on the face of the earth which would prevent loved ones from seeing each other for the last time. Cubans say they are spiritual people, and follow the teachings of Jesus. But, it appears to me that the right wing Cubans politics supersede the teaching of Jesus. Quite honestly, they appear to be doing the bidding of the devil. It is my belief that the right wing Cuban politics are driven by evil forces, which are sanctioned by the devil himself. Right wing cubans should be avoided, and shunned. As they are nothing but the devil incarnate.

Nuff said,
John

P.S.
Divided, you must know shortly you will be accused of being a communist for wanting to travel to see your loved one for the last time. Good luck with the future name calling that be soon to follow. You commie bastard!!

[john]

You know I can almost suck my own penis. The best part about trying is when I climax all over my face.

The real john.

[john]

Ok, i want everyone to see how that imposter ended "the real john" with a period. I never use a period, i always use a comma. A period, or a series of three period are always used by cubans. Oscar ban this poster is making post under my screen name. Ban him.

[john]

john (imposter) said "You know I can almost suck my own penis. The best part about trying is when I climax all over my face."

The reality is, I have NO penis.

Nuff said,
John

[conductor]

DCF,

I never met my grandfather who died in Cuba several years ago so I sympathize. But isn't it true that you would not have the problems of family separation if there were a free democratic Cuba?

The US did not install the totalitarian regime or its inhumane policies. So don't blame the US.

The fact is that under the circumstances you describe you can get a license from OFAC to visit Cuba. You can also apply for a visitor's visa for the immediate family relative to visit the US. If you really just want to see your immediate family members you can. You don't like the 3-year provision, well I don't like my tax bracket and dozens of other laws. But that's the way democracy works. You advocate for your point of view and elect the leaders to represent you. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But crying about it like a baby doesn't seem too nuanced to me.

Somehow because we elect effective representatives that deliver on their promises of hard-line policies towards Cuba its characterized as shady. Bullshit I say. And as for thar that baloney about being nuanced, I may currently live in Miami but I've lived in Philadelphia, and Spain too. I'm not ignorant. I just have a different opinion than you. It's a typical liberal debate tactic to denigrate your opponent.

[john]

I never use a period. Ban him. Ban him I say. I'm for free speech until someone ridicules me, after that I don't care about the first amendment anymore. Ban him.

Nuff said,

John

[curt]

It is U.S policy towards Cuba which is responsible for much of the repression there. When Jimmy Carter was president thousands of political prisoners were freed in Cuba. We need to get rid of morons like Bush, Illeana Ros-Lethinan & those Diaz Balart assholes.

[johnfromMaryland]

Reply to john (conductor) comments. Thanks for your comments.

First off, let me begin by underscoring that I am NOT an apologist nor will I ever be of Cuba's repressive government (neither is my wife, para nada!).

Now some responses to some of conductor's musings (MY RESPONSEs APPEAR IN CAPS):

"...I never met my grandfather who died in Cuba several years ago so I sympathize. But isn't it true that you would not have the problems of family separation if there were a free democratic Cuba?..."'
OKAY, BUT (AND A BIG BUT) YOUR LOGIC IS WAY OFF HERE AND TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT, FROM MY VIEWPOINT.. YOU, AND MANY OTHERS, TEND TO USE DEMOCRACY, AND CUBA'S LACK OF IT, AS THE CRUCIAL VARIABLE WHICH HELPS EXPLAIN US INANE POLICIES TOWARD FAMILY VISITS TO CUBA.. BUT CUBA, BEING DEMOCRACY OR NOT, SEEMS TO HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I HAVE NO RIGHT TO TAKE MY CHILD TO VISIT HIS GRANDFATHER IN HABANA WHENEVER HE PLEASES. PLEASE CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

SAY MY WIFE WAS FROM CHINA , MY CHILD COULD VISIT HIS GRANDPARENTS AT ANY TIME, OR LET'S SAY MY WIFE WAS FROM VIETNAM (COMMUNIST), SAUDIA ARABIA (DICTATOR), NEPAL (MONARCH), VENEZUELA, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.. IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU USE DEMOCRACY AS THE VARIABLE TO EXPLAIN WHY IT IS JUSTIFIABLE TO HAVE CRUEL RESTRICTIONS ON FAMILY VISITS, YOUR ARGUMENT FALL SHORTS AND CLEAR CONTRADICTIONS EMERGE.
LOOK AT US POLICY WITH OTHER CLEARLY NON-DEMOCRATIC REGIMES

"...The US did not install the totalitarian regime or its inhumane policies. So don't blame the US..." THIS SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER CHEAP TRICK THE HARD RIGHT LIKES TO USE (BY THE WAY I AM NOT FLAMING LIBERAL MYSELF, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY).

CONDUCTOR, B/C I CALL THE NEW RESTRICTIONS ON CUBAN-AMERICAN FAMILY VISITS CRUEL AND CONTRARY TO US INTERESTS AND OUR WAY OF LIFE DOESN'T MEAN I AM 'BLAMING' THE US.

BY THE WAY, WHILE WE ARE ON THE SUBJECT, HAVE YOU EVER STUDIED US-RELATIONS WITH BATISTA?

"...If you really just want to see your immediate family members you can." THAT'S ALL I WANT MAN, JUST TO SEE MY IN-LAWS AND FOR MY WIFE AND OUR CHILD TO SEE (GRAND)PARENTS.. "You don't like the 3-year provision, well I don't like my tax bracket and dozens of other laws. But that's the way democracy works..." YOU ARE RIGHT, BUT I FIRMLY DISAGREE THAT THE 3-YEAR PROVISION ON FAMILY VISITS IS JUST OR THAT IT FURTHERS ANY TYPE OF US INTEREST (BESIDES PLACATING THE MOST EXTREME OF CUBAN-AMERICANS IN SOUTH FLORIDA).

IN ADDITION, WHEN YOU SUGGEST THAT THE RESTRICTION ON FAMILY VISITS (3-YEAR PROVISION) IS A RESULT OF DEMOCRACY - I SAY THAT IS LAUGHABLE. THE 3-YEAR PROVISION ON FAMILY VISITS IS A CLAUSE PUT IN BY THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION TO PLACATE/APPEASE THE CUBAN-AMERICAN SOUTH FLORIDA - TO 'APPEAR ' HARDLINE AND TO 'PAY ' SOUTH FLORIDIANS BACK FOR VOTING REP. IN THE 1ST ELECTION.

BY THE WAY, IN 2002 THE REPUBLICAN-LED CONGRESS ACTUALLY VOTED TO REMOVE CRUEL RESTRICTIONS IMPOSED ON CUBAN-AMERICANS FOR FAMILY VISITS, BUT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION CAME BACK AND THREATENED TO VETO IF THIS CLAUSE WAS MAINTAINED AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY ACTUALLY MADE FAMILY VISIT RULES TIGHTER AND MORE REPREHENSIBLE.. . ON ANOTHER NOTE, I WOULD GUESS THAT ABOUT 95 PERCENT OF AMERICANS HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS ENDURED/IMPOSED BY ORDINARY CUBAN-AMERICAN FAMILIES .. I GUESS THIS IS DEMOCRACY, THEN?

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But crying about it like a baby doesn't seem too nuanced to me. NOT CRYING, JUST TRYING TO FIGHT FOR THE BASIC RIGHTS I AND MY FAMILIY ARE GIVEN UNDER THE US CONSTITUTIONAL - THE FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT(FREEDOM TO CELEBRATE MY FATHER IN-LAWS' 78 BIRTHDAY WITH HIM)! AND BY THE WAY, CONDUCTOR, YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THOSE ADVOCATING RATIONAL POLICES FOR CUBAN-AMERICAN FAMILY VISITS HAVE LOST AND ARE LOSING...WE ARE LOSING, I CANNOT DENY THAT. RESTICTIONS ARE LIKELY TO GET WORSE BEFORE BETTER.

And as for thar that baloney about being nuanced, I may currently live in Miami but I've lived in Philadelphia, and Spain too. I'm not ignorant. I just have a different opinion than you. It's a typical liberal debate tactic to denigrate your opponent.
POINT TAKEN, AND I DON'T WANT TO BE DISRESPECTFUL... AND YES, I ADMIT IT, I AM A PROUD NORTHEASTERN POLICY WONK MARRIED TO A WONDERFUL AND BEAUTIFUL CUBAN!

[gansibele]

Robert;

When I said "disgruntled relative with a bone to pick" and "ineffectual stubborn narrow-agenda demagogue", I'm talking specifically about congressman Lincoln Diaz Balart who, as you know, is Castro's nephew, and is Ms. Carbonell's boss which is the subject of the post. Both descriptions fit him perfectly. Maybe that "makes a little too much sense for you". Way to set an example about "belittling" with your tone there by the way. And then you wonder why your blog and others like yours don't get credibility. It takes you three sentences to get in a personal attack. Nice.

If you don't understand that the "intolerance" you are so proud of has not won the Cuban cause any friends anywhere in the US or around the world, if you don't understand that the politicians are just using Cuba to get elected, if you don't understand that people-to-people contact since "la comunidad" has done more to subvert Castro's regime than your silly infighting, if you don't understand that you have sold out your vote to the Republican Party to such extent that you are taken for granted and your president does nothing but posturing while Republicans lobby to end the embargo, if you don't understand that's inherently hypocritical to say democracy is the reason to get tough on Cuba while happily doing business with China, then you are the one who is lacking "understanding of the pain and heartache that many Cubans justly feel". So spare me the lecture. For you Cuba is a hobby. For me is real. I have lived all my life with divided family, on both sides, which I'm sure is more than you can say, and you and the people that think like you, the people that are interested in dividing to advance a narrow agenda, are part of the problem, as much of an obstacle, as Castro is to a solution to Cuba's problem. That's the truth. It's time for you to get out of the way. You don't understand me, but I understand you very well.

[conductor]

DCF,

The reason the sanctions are in place is to deny Cuba hard currency and to hasten the end of the regime so that all of this can be behind us. Before you mention the 47 years of failure of the embargo, I have to remind you that Cuba was receiving 5-6 Billion in aid annually from the USSR for 30+ years. You can't possibly count those years. And why go soft now? Before castro used the embargo as a political chip, he didn't want it removed. Now he does because it's a last ditch effort to get another lifeline. Notice how he spreads all of Cuba's purchases among different states trying to win allies in congress.

The reason that the once per three years policy was enacted was in a sense we have seen the enemy and it is us.

People were coming over here and then within a couple of years returning to Cuba on a regular basis. If you want normal travel policies toward Cuba, then I think we should revisit immigration policies and end the special exception that Cubans have enjoyed for so many years.

You have the right to travel anywhere in the world. You don't have a right to use US legal tender anywhere in the world. The US government sets the country's trade policies.

I don't see how Batista is relevant to this discussion. Whatever the US policies were at the time don't matter because we have democracy in the US and foreign policy objectives change with each successive administration. That's why I don't buy the tired arguments about the war in Iraq or Afghanistan because we once had some sort of working relationship with the groups we are now warring with. In cuba castro is the one variable that has not changed. It's ridiculous to think that Castro will ever change policies without outside pressure.

I stand by my argument that Cubans voted for Bush to be tough on Castro and all Bush has done is deliver on the promises. I don't see what that's so hard to understand or why that's so dastardly. Don't many Jewish voters use the Israel litmus test on their candidates. Don't they hold their elected representatives to their promises? Doesn't every group? You don't like our opinion, you don't like the policies we want enacted, fine. But get off your high horse, we have used the tools available to us in our DEMOCRATIC system and have prevailed. There's nothing dirty about that. You would vote for a candidate that promises to remove the embargo and you would expect him to do it if he won.

I don't believe you just want to visit family in Cuba. if you did you would have already gotten your license and gone. You would have asked for visa for the relatives to come here. You just want to make a political point. That's fine but don't use the pretext. It's weak. A lot of people have been unwillingly separated from their families because of fidel castro. I'm sure Oscar Elias Biscet's wife would like to be with him right now instead of having him rot in a Cuban jail.

CURT,

Let me explain to you how the world works. If you want something from me I set the conditions. If castro wants the embargo removed then the US gets to set the conditions. The embargo DOES NOT CAUSE castro to jail independent thinkers and dissidents, only castro's desire for absolute power does that. How can the same people that vilify pinochet forgive castro. Even if pinochet is guilty of killing every person he's accused of, it's a much smaller number than the deaths caused by castro.

Jimmy Carter is a useless tool that allowed fidel castro to dump 125,000 refugees on the US on his conditions. Every time the US has attempted to normalize relations with Cuba castro has done something to undermine the efforts.

[john]

Gansible wrote to conductor: If you don't understand that the "intolerance" you are so proud of has not won the Cuban cause any friends anywhere in the US or around the world

Gansibele,

What you have to understand is that self-loathing Cubans such as Conductor do not care about the impact of his words or actions upon Cubans who try to make a living outside of Miami. Most Cubans like Conductor never leave the comforts of Miami, so they never have to experience what other Cubans do, such as the hardline Cuban named Val. Cuban hardliners such as Val have had to flee back to Miami, as they are afraid and ashamed to admit that they are Cuban. Good!! I think Cubans should be fearful to admit that they are Cuban. When someone tells me they are cuban, i immediately change the way i interact and speak with them. Why? Because i know the type of attitude that im dealing with mirrors Conductor. Yes, i may be wrong, but its not worth my time to let my guard down them. The statements made in this room, only assist to reinforce my thinking that i am correct to assume the worst when i meet a Cuban. Note: I never had a problem with Cubans until Elian, and the recognition of the ugly right wing mentality which dominates the Cuban culture. When i have kids here, i will also pass down my beliefs about Cubans, as i want them to be prepared when they meet the Cuban for the first time. Conductor, and other like him create and fuel people like me by reinforcing the images of the marial boatlift,the movie Scarface, and the Elian Gonzales riots. Im sure there are some gracious and beautiful Cubans out there. But at this point in time, i dont care to shift through them. This blog runs 10-1 good vs bad cuban. Below is an article which was posted by Val, a hardline Cuban. When i read it a few months back, even before i discover this blog i felt bad that he was sterotyped. Now after reading several of his rightwing blogs. I have concluded that 90% of the time a "real" American will be correct by preconceived notions about "any" Cuban they meet. Note also: many cubans here "except" Val will swear i am Cuban. Val knows that many Americans do think exactly like i do. That is why he has never questioned that fact that i am an American. Now you also say it is hard for you as a Cuban. Cubans are in denial, they believe there are no hostility or sterotypes about them. They think that Americans are glad that they run their city of Miami. They think that all the americans fleeing up to Ft.Lauderdale has nothing to do with Cubans. They think Americans were happy with marial boatlift. They think americans dont sit around and shake their head with the cuban corruption. They think that they are beloved in SouthFlorida. Ignorant Dumbasses!!

Cite: http://www.babalublog.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1114

October 27, 2004
I am a Miami Cuban.
Why is it that some folks despise me so much?

Well, to them I say: Walk a mile in my shoes, motherf***ers.

Posted by Val Prieto at October 27, 2004 03:42 PM

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Comments
I am a New York City Cuban American. There used to be a lot of us here at one time. There was even parts of the city that were considered Cuban enclaves. Not anymore. They have either died, moved to New Jersey, or gone to Miami - or the children of Cubans became yuppies and married Anglos and don't give a shit about being Cuban.

It's hard to be Cuban American in NYC - people ask you what you are - you say Cuban - there are usually 2 responses:

1. Oh I love Cuba - I went last year - had a great time - do you listen to the Buena Vista Social Club...

2. Oh but you are not one of those crazy Nazi Miami Cubans right?

or you tell em you are Cuban American and they look at you like you just admitted to having an affair with theri mothers and killing little puupies!

"...but you people are evil with the blockade and the vilence against the poor innocent island that gives free medical care and free education with the lowest infant mortality rate in the world! Tell me, tell me, tell me why do you people hate Fidel so much? YOU ARE FULL OF HATRED!" they scream at you!

no kidding - this and many situations like this have happened to us here all the time - so although I am proud to be a Cuban and I am an anti communist I have to be quite at times for fear of being called a Fascist Nazi.

[gansibele]

I wonder why people don't read before posting. I answered to Robert, John, not Conductor. BTW, I'm not on your side OK? - as much of a diseagreement I may have with Val or Robert or Conductor, I think they are sincere and honest people, much better than you, and very proud of their heritage. I've met plenty of Americans who are ignorant racist bigots and spouse for real the attitudes and opinions you mockingly assume here (or maybe you really do think this way). Either way, you are pitiful.

[nonee moose]

John (TM):

do more of that "thumb" thing... it's great!

Y NO JODAS MAS CON LO DE CUBA! A NADIE LE INTERESA LO QUE TU OPINAS!

nuff said...

[john]

Genasibele wrote: I've met plenty of Americans who are ignorant racist bigots and spouse for real the attitudes and opinions you mockingly assume here (or maybe you really do think this way). Either way, you are pitiful

Oh, but i do subscribe to the notion that the cuban has an ugly right wing mentality. No mocking here. Living here in Miami, i have to watch these arrogrant Cubans strut around this city with their corrupt ways bragging about how they built up the poorest city in the nation. Why in the hell would i believe anything different? Look how they rioted and flipped over cars during Elian. Im not supposed to internize their behavior into my psyche. And, frankly i dont care that you think im pititful, or on my side. Because at the end of the day your loyalty belongs with Cuba, not America. You just have a different approach than the failed ways of Conductor.

[jonfrommaryland]

Thanks for your response Conductor.

You make some valid points in your last response, but also many many absurd ones.

I will focus my thoughts on two issues:

(1)
You wrote:"
I don't believe you just want to visit family in Cuba. if you did you would have already gotten your license and gone. You would have asked for visa for the relatives to come here. "

With this statement you are directly challenging my and my family's desire (and right) to visit our in-laws in Cuba. This is offensive. This is the big problem with people on your side - those who want to visit family (my father in-law) are villified and questioned as "apologists".

Again, I know we can get lisence to go from OFAC (we have already done so), but its once per three years as you know of course. Might I add that they did take away the right to "home stays" in cuba.. They did this by stating that it is legal to travel to cuba (which technically is true) but not spend US money is specious. Both are the same, the consequence is same.

I am arguing that family visit once per 3 years is immoral and flies in the face of "family values" . By the way, I can't just readily bring a 70-some year old man and 60-year old mother, who has lived in Cuba all of their life, to live in US. There are many complex issues related to this.

A crucial point, in terms of the argument, is that having family visits does very very very little to "line the pockets of the regime", as you suggest..

Consider this --- with over million foreign tourists visiting cuba per year (canadians, Brazilians, europeans) plus increasing alliances and foreign direct investment from Venz., Spain, China, and now Bolivia, the frequency of cuban-american family visits to cuba have, and will have, no affect on the length of the regime.
Furthermore, your logic - the line about "lining the pockets of regime" - , taken one step further would be as follows. By going to buy gas, you are "appeasing" authoritarian non-democratic governments in the Middle East and/or lining the pockets of very suspect characters such as Chavez and by the way, let us not forget the warloads and local cronies that benefit from oil production in Nigiera. So, by your logic, we should consider this issue, when we get into our cars.

OR consider another extension of the thought that family visits in Cuba help line the pockets of the regime: By buying clothes and gadgets in Wal-mart (95 percent of which are made in China) you are helping the communist gov. there, which by the way is no saint on human rights. OR by visiting Vietnam or Beijing you are again "lining the pockets" of the brutal communist regimes of these countries. By the way, you know that hundreds of thousands of Americans visit China per year, for business and pleasure. And thousands and thousands of Chinese Americans send money back to their families, just like Cuban-Americans. OR perhaps even more absurd example of your logic -- by buying Big Macs you are destroying rain forest (b.c you know - the pressure the meat industry puts on open space in tropical countries.) You see this logic goes no where.

I challenge anyone to explain ( i mean give us a valid reason) to my 4 year-old child FACE TO FACE why he can't visit his grandfather, who is in and out of the hospital, in habana, b/c we went there 2 years ago, and have to wait another year to get permission to go. You, and your side, are on weak moral ground when it comes to family visits.

You mention in your comments that I have a larger fight than "family visits" to Cuba and that I am just using it as excuse for a larger political point. I disagree with this (family visits should not be POLITICAL) ..My comments about familiy visits are deeply personal and actaully on moral grounds -- No political agenda.

With that said, I do readily admit that I proudly believe (with solid empirical support) that the US embargo has helped Castro more than hurt him, but this is outside of the scope of our discussion.

If i wanted to debate you on the usefulness of the trade embargo i would choose to do so using other arguments and data (hell, by now there must be whole libraries full of academic, objective, and empirically-driven books showing how the embargo has failed and actually helped rather than hastened the demise of the beard). Oh wait, your side does not like books or empirical reality. You prefer your neo-con. fanatasies (i know, this is a low-blow but you had some low, and more personal, blows in your last comments to me).

(2)
The second point. Your comments show your true colors by implying that people who advocate a policy of opening up family visits for cuban americans (more than 1 per 3 years)are somehow equilvalent to "apologists". You are mistaken, and again conflating two very different things here, showing that your side is only interested in framing things in a "black" and "white" way. Again I, and many in my camp, would happily critize castro just as much as Pinochet; for sure! i agree the far-left says stupid things about the beard.. but most for humane family visit rules are not memebers of the far-left, nor the far-right.
By the way, many people who don't believe in the efficacy of the US trade embargo, aside from extreme left, argue quite succesfully that the US embargo actually gives Castro an advantage and has helped further his regime's goals over the decades. Consider recent reality: -- the growing alliance between Venez. and Bolivia with cuba, not to mention China's and Spain's (and Canada's) growing investment and influence there.

I would agree with you that IF the world would be unison in doing a trade embargo to Cuba then the embargo would indeed be powerful force in hurting the goals of his regime.. BUT a trade embargo from only one country will NEVER bring a regime down on its own.. it will only serve, unintentionally, to consolidate the power of the same dictator its trying to harm..by giving the dictator an excuse for their own failings.
Again, if you don't want to accept the arguement that the embargo actual helps Castro fine.. But reality on the ground in Cuba suggests otherwise. The embargo continues, unfortunately, to help the beard, - he uses the embargo as the excuse for all of his regime's failures (including the infamous blackouts last summer).. The problem is that most common cubans living in Cuba believe him (b/c you know, they have no access to other information and their socialization process).. Moreover, tightening relations with China, russia, boliva, Venz. , means that Cuba will continue to be bankrolled in the future, thus negating the potentially positive outcomes of the trade embargo..

Anyway, i've gone on a tagent, I wanted to focus on restrictions on family visits to cuba, but you pulled me into a broader and much more complex debate about the embargo.

In the end, restrictive policy on family visits should be de-coupled with overall embargo policy. We should, in my opinion, try to treat these two issues very separately (although the current climate of fear mongering and politcal showmanship seems to want to conflate them).

As we might see (I fear and guess) that on may 20 with the release of the new report, your side will continue to conflate immoral family visit restrictions with the general trade embargo)... In the meantime, my father in-law, not in such a healthy way due to his age, will continue to think of the smile of his grandchild's and daughter's face; waiting for those "3" years to pass by quickly, hoping he lives just a bit more so he can see us again - possibly for the last time ..

[john]

On second thought. Good!! Enforce the travel ban. Stop the younger generation from seeing the parents homeland. That way the Cuban culture will be dialouted even more than it already has been. Before long Cuba will cease to even matter to the younger generation. Then there will be a whole generation of hip-hop gangster type Cubans, with absolutely no attachments to Cuba. Good!! Good!!

[conductor]

good luck to you.

[john]

I just want to apologize to everyone on this forum for being such horse's ass. I hope you can find it in your compassionate and great Cuban hearts to forgive me.

[cubanita]

I am buying one of these.

http://illegaltshirts.blogspot.com/

[john]

Val the self-loathing Cuban wrote: Ive never lived in new york, you putz. And Babalu sure does show how much I hate being cuban.

Ah, the wonders of Google. Discovered this lil nugget. Another Cuban lie, by the self-loathing cuban Val. I will chase you around the blogisphere with this one boy, until you satisfy me as to this inconsistent statements.

Cite: http://www.babalublog.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1114

October 27, 2004
I am a Miami Cuban.
Why is it that some folks despise me so much?

Well, to them I say: Walk a mile in my shoes, motherf***ers.

Posted by Val Prieto at October 27, 2004 03:42 PM

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I am a New York City Cuban American. There used to be a lot of us here at one time. There was even parts of the city that were considered Cuban enclaves. Not anymore. They have either died, moved to New Jersey, or gone to Miami - or the children of Cubans became yuppies and married Anglos and don't give a shit about being Cuban.

It's hard to be Cuban American in NYC - people ask you what you are - you say Cuban - there are usually 2 responses:

1. Oh I love Cuba - I went last year - had a great time - do you listen to the Buena Vista Social Club...

2. Oh but you are not one of those crazy Nazi Miami Cubans right?

or you tell em you are Cuban American and they look at you like you just admitted to having an affair with theri mothers and killing little puupies!

"...but you people are evil with the blockade and the vilence against the poor innocent island that gives free medical care and free education with the lowest infant mortality rate in the world! Tell me, tell me, tell me why do you people hate Fidel so much? YOU ARE FULL OF HATRED!" they scream at you!

no kidding - this and many situations like this have happened to us here all the time - so although I am proud to be a Cuban and I am an anti communist I have to be quite at times for fear of being called a Fascist Nazi.

[PT]

John,

Take a trip to Germany. They are offering specials.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/germany_virgins_dc

[john]

Interesting that you are cruising prostitution articles!!

[john]

I admit it I'm totally gay!

[Sam]

While spending much time in Cuba doing academic research, I noticed one thing about Fidel's propaganda machine: Fidel turns out to be brilliant at framing any political discussion as a simple binary choice between two powerful sides. In the state controlled media, in the forced rallies and marches, on the billboards for communism, Fidel paints the world black and white. It's always this or that. Either or. With us or against us. Cuban citizens in Cuba do not support the embargo, and Fidel tries to exploit this fact by arguing that anyone against the American embargo must consequently be in favor of the (repressive) Cuban sate. This is an insidious trick played by Fidel.

That is why I am so dismayed by the characterization of American perspectives on Cuba as EITHER "Cuban pro-democracy activists" OR "Cuban government supporters or sympathizers." This or that. Us or them. It is not right. I am not with Fidel. I've seen the misery he imposes. But the embargo doesn't work (I believe). It gives him power. It makes things worse, and it isolates the Cubans who need outside contact the most.

But that's not the point. Whether or not you agree with me about the embargo, please at least recognize the similarity in Fidel's "either-or" propaganda with that of "Cuban pro-democracy activists" OR "Cuban government supporters or sympathizers." There's quite a bit of room in between. Don't shut out all of us who are against Castro, against the embargo, and rooting for the pueblo cubano.

En solidaridad,
Samuel

[conductor]

Samuel,

Nobody said anti-embargo folks are automatically sympathizers. The post that originated the discussion on this blog was about where to categorize the various blogs and web sites that Mr. Corral links to. He decided to categorize them according to their orientation. I believe there are SOME anti-embargo folks that truly are against fidel but I also know there's a hell of a lot of castro sympathizers on the ENCASA letter. Let's not kid ourselves there's a lot of people who worship at fidels feet walking around in this country and there are also castro agents among us. These aren't the hallucinations of some old men. Carlos and Elsa Alvarez are just the most recent example.

If you want to see my point of view on the embargo fully articulated then go see my rebuttal to the open letter at http://www.babalublog.com/archives/003260.html

[john]

Sam wrote: That is why I am so dismayed by the characterization of American perspectives on Cuba as EITHER "Cuban pro-democracy activists" OR "Cuban government.

Sam, you have confused two groups and the boycott. The Cuban exile supports the boycott, the America people dont. America trades freely with China, study there, and many will travel there for the upcoming Olympics. Americans are fine with that, as the Cuban exiles. The boycott is special because of the Cuban exile wishes. Please dont mistake the Cuban exile, with the "real" American. The two think completely different.

[john]

Conductor worte: Let's not kid ourselves there's a lot of people who worship at fidels feet walking around in this country and there are also castro agents among us

And lets not kid ourselves, many Cubans dont want the Batista type Cubans like you to run their lives either.

[Sam]

Conductor, I’ve read your statement of support for the embargo (link referenced in comment above), and I found it very articulate and informative. However there are two parts of it that I would like to remark on. First, you write:

“It defies logic to believe that after forty-seven years Fidel Castro will suddenly have a change of heart regarding the role of the United States in the world and conversely his role as its opponent. In short, there can be no meaningful dialogue with Cuba as long as Fidel Castro is in power.”

This statement has one serious flaw: you assume that dialogue with Cuba requires dialogue with Fidel Castro. Wrong. Dialogue with Cuba comes with all types of human contact. When Cuban Americans travel and visit their families and friends, that’s part of a dialogue. When American students travel and bring American perspectives and learn from Cuban perspectives and meet all types of people, that’s part of a dialogue. And yes, when we sell products to Cuba that end up in the hands of Cuban citizens (albeit distributed by the Fidel), that’s part of a dialogue.

I suspect that you will counter that Fidel controls everything in society: the economy, the culture, and even what people hear, say, and think. In fact Fidel does try to control all of this. But he fails. Give some credit to the Cuban people, who’ve become remarkably crafty in subverting state control. For example, there’s an extensively documented literature on black markets in Cuba, which Fidel cannot control (I’ll recommend you some enjoyable reads if interested). Travel and trade energize those black markets; travel and trade also energize the black markets for ideas. People in Havana see travelers and they see another world, a capitalist world. Travel presents an opportunity to learn about that world. Isolation, meanwhile, does a grave disservice to the Cuban people (and also prevents Americans and Cuban-Americans from understanding the Cuban reality).

Also, you write:

“It is because we so badly desire freedom for [ordinary Cubans] that we advocate policies that will hasten the demise of Castro and his dictatorship.”

I suggest you ask the people of Cuba what they prefer: embargo or no embargo. I encourage you to go to Havana and ask around. Although I don’t have statistics in my back pocket, strong anecdotal evidence suggests that Cuban citizens overwhelmingly reject the embargo. Don’t blame this on Fidel’s propaganda or mind control; you have to give the Cuban people a little credit. People do think for themselves. People are frustrated with the system and want change. But they don’t want the isolation of the embargo or the economic hardship it imposes. I am making sweeping generalizations here, but the truth is that I can’t remember EVER meeting a Cuban citizen who supported the embargo. I’m talking about people who live in Cuba. Do they know best or does our government know best? I think the people of Cuba know best.

[Luis Moro - Filmmaker]

Who cares who calls who what. The reality is DENIAL is killing many if not all of us.

It's just amazing to read all these comments.
Some make sense, some don't and others; well – “Viva La F.U. to the embargo on Cuba.”

We know what Castro's done and why. F-em him too.

What I can't understand is why we Cubans don't grow up already and try something new. The embargo has not, and does not work.

Let's invade Cuba with capitalism. If you want to beat Castro, let’s put a McDonald’s in Habana before he dies.

Now, here's a shocker, that’s no surprise if you’re truly honest with yourself.

We know that if Cuba was white, there would be no embargo. What!

Well, check in, be honest with yourself. It's not a matter of racism; it's a matter of consciousness.

Most of you know you are not racist, but you will think twice before your kid dates a black person. Cubans jump up to dance salsa when we hear a song that says "Mommy what does the black guy want" and Haitians having the same rights? Never.

Oh, and let's not forget the fearless leaders of the embargo, “The Bermuda Triangle” of Ros-Lehtinen and Diaz-Balart squared; they’re as white Cuban as skin comes. They don’t represent Cuba or most Cubans for that matter.

I’m a black Cuban. And I know most if not all Cuban’s will say. “We are not racist.” Sure we’re not. Say that to yourself the next time you see “un negro”. Close your eyes for 60 seconds and image if Cuba was mostly a white country. I bet you might start to think differently. Again, it’s simply a matter of consciousness.

Most of the pro embargo community cannot really relate to the current Cuba. And no I am not pro Castro. Which often the automatic unconscious response given, when someone is asked to think beyond their own embargo - on their own thinking.

Again, DENIAL is killing all of us. We are all dying a slow death in our hearts with Cuba. And the killer is our fellow Cuban. Castro is living fine, our politicians are living fine; we are the ones losing.

To all who are pro-embargo. Try something new, lift the embargo on your thoughts and on Cuba. You can still hate Castro. F-em to his end. But we have to stop F-ing the majority of us Cuban’s who do have family in Cuba. And stop F-ing yourself. Wake up. Our parents already lost Cuba to Castro. AND we’re losing Cuba to China.
Yes, as we bicker, we are losing Cuba to China.

To be continued… Luis Moro. Filmmaker, EverythingCuba.com